Hydrogen power

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macliam
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by macliam » Sat Jun 13 2020 8:30pm

AAAlphaThunder wrote:
Sat Jun 13 2020 7:31pm
$60k too high a price tag for the average person.
Economies of scale, old sport. Remember when the Tesla model S was the only viable battery car on the market? It cost a heck of a lot more than $60k...... now they've reduced the price for the model 3, but it's also a lesser car. However, it has forced other car makers to start to produce equivalents....

The hydrogen fuel cell gives all the advantages of the battery electric drivechain - but without the need for a hugely expensive battery and without having its range compromised by hours of charging. I have no doubt that hydrogen fuel cells will be the powertrain of the future and the current battery-powered cars will be replaced longer term.

However, it means investment - and the current drive towards the Tesla view is focusing attention on the wrong area, IMHO. Why have trucks and buses with ranges compromised by needing to be charged for hours, when you can have a liquid fuel and "unlimited" range....... why replace millions of gas boilers with heat pumps when you can use the existing network to provide a clean alternative to natural gas? Why look for inefficient ways to store "green" energy, when it could be used to crack water and produce hydrogen.... a natural fuel store.
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by Boro Boy » Sun Jun 14 2020 12:09am

macliam wrote:
Sat Jun 13 2020 8:30pm
AAAlphaThunder wrote:
Sat Jun 13 2020 7:31pm
$60k too high a price tag for the average person.
Economies of scale, old sport. Remember when the Tesla model S was the only viable battery car on the market? It cost a heck of a lot more than $60k...... now they've reduced the price for the model 3, but it's also a lesser car. However, it has forced other car makers to start to produce equivalents....

The hydrogen fuel cell gives all the advantages of the battery electric drivechain - but without the need for a hugely expensive battery and without having its range compromised by hours of charging. I have no doubt that hydrogen fuel cells will be the powertrain of the future and the current battery-powered cars will be replaced longer term.

However, it means investment - and the current drive towards the Tesla view is focusing attention on the wrong area, IMHO. Why have trucks and buses with ranges compromised by needing to be charged for hours, when you can have a liquid fuel and "unlimited" range....... why replace millions of gas boilers with heat pumps when you can use the existing network to provide a clean alternative to natural gas? Why look for inefficient ways to store "green" energy, when it could be used to crack water and produce hydrogen.... a natural fuel store.
Sounds like the way to go but its the first step which is the most difficult.

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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by macliam » Sun Jun 14 2020 1:25am

Boro Boy wrote:
Sun Jun 14 2020 12:09am
Sounds like the way to go but its the first step which is the most difficult.
That's the reason government seed-funding is necessary.

Imagine the possibilities once the issues of storage and delivery are cracked - imagine the payback if an economical fuel-cell design can be produced. Interestingly, Toyota, having been early into the electric drivechain with the Prius, they haven't moved on from the hybrid approach to full plug-in.... maybe because they're banking on the fuel-cell..... James May dives the Tesla model S and the Mirai in this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaIW5CQQ3Zo

BUT, the biggest bang-for-bucks would be to get our trchnical boffins to crack a way of producing cheap, green, hydrogen...... because, at the moment, it's expensive and not too green (in the way it's produced).
Cheaper fuel would drive Toyota, Hyundai and the johnny-come-latelys to look at fuel-cells again, but, importantly, it would mean we could incease the amount in the gas network and reduce the carbon impact of all those boilers out there.
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by BeautifulSunshine » Mon Jul 27 2020 8:48pm

Ground breaking, cutting edge and state-of-the-art research into new generation of batteries.
The lithium-ion batteries in our devices degrade over time and come with a large environmental cost. Are there better ways to store and carry energy that are kinder to the planet?

They are the beating heart of our modern portable technology – packets of energy that we can charge from a plug in the wall and slowly drain through the course of a day. Lithium-ion batteries have transformed our ability to store and carry energy around with us, and so, in turn, revolutionised the devices we use.

First commercialised by Sony in 1991 as the company sought a solution to the limited battery life of its handheld camcorders, they power many of the gadgets we use today – from smartphones and laptops to electric toothbrushes and handheld vacuum cleaners. At the end of last year, the three scientists behind its invention won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for enabling this technical revolution.
Full Story:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2020 ... 1000-years
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by macliam » Mon Jul 27 2020 10:19pm

Every new battery is seen as "the answer".... until the drawbacks become apparent. NiCD batteries were the bees knees.... rechargeable and wonderful, until we learned about the memory effect (and cadmium isn't very nice). NiMH batteries largely lost the memory effect, but tended to self-discharge and had a limited life... although some technologies were developed to improve this, but the amount of charge for their size was a drawback and they charged slowly. Lithium Ion batteries got rid of the cadmium (almost) and held greater charge with less self-discharge and charged faster, so are the current darling of the tech-world.... but they still use nasty substances that come from sensitive areas... and they still have a finite lifetime (and they've also been known to explode). So, onto the next......

Hydrogen is a fuel - it is already stored power. it can be produced from water and degrades to water, having released the energy used in its production. There is no waste product, there is no depletion of resources. We know it's efficiency and its drawbacks, we know it can be used to replace hydrocarbons in internal combustion, as a heat source in boilers or in fuel cells to produce electricity. Once we have established an efficient way to produce it using green energy, we will be running on energy captured from the sun.
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by BeautifulSunshine » Mon Jul 27 2020 10:43pm

macliam wrote:
Mon Jul 27 2020 10:19pm
Every new battery is seen as "the answer".... until the drawbacks become apparent. NiCD batteries were the bees knees.... rechargeable and wonderful, until we learned about the memory effect (and cadmium isn't very nice). NiMH batteries largely lost the memory effect, but tended to self-discharge and had a limited life... although some technologies were developed to improve this, but the amount of charge for their size was a drawback and they charged slowly. Lithium Ion batteries got rid of the cadmium (almost) and held greater charge with less self-discharge and charged faster, so are the current darling of the tech-world.... but they still use nasty substances that come from sensitive areas... and they still have a finite lifetime (and they've also been known to explode). So, onto the next......

Hydrogen is a fuel - it is already stored power. it can be produced from water and degrades to water, having released the energy used in its production. There is no waste product, there is no depletion of resources. We know it's efficiency and its drawbacks, we know it can be used to replace hydrocarbons in internal combustion, as a heat source in boilers or in fuel cells to produce electricity. Once we have established an efficient way to produce it using green energy, we will be running on energy captured from the sun.
A well thought out rebuke.

Nonetheless, one of these ideas may come to fruition and thereby become a game-changer.
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Re: Hydrogen power

Post by macliam » Mon Jul 27 2020 11:09pm

AAAlphaThunder wrote:
Mon Jul 27 2020 10:43pm

A well thought out rebuke.

Nonetheless, one of these ideas may come to fruition and thereby become a game-changer.
Not a rebuke, but a rebuttal.

I have no problem with the use of batteries in certain circumstances (a hydrogen-powered laptop is a long way off!), but I do have a problem with the concentration being on a method of storage, rather than the fuel itself.

Efficient hydrogen production needs all the funding and backing it can get.... once the fuel is available via a reliable and affordable process, the methods of use and other requirements will follow the normal lifecycle. However, whilst hydrogen remains less available, the amount of such research is constrained by the lack of a perceived market.
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